WG/OBIT/Fall 2011 OBIT Minutes

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Oct 19 2011

9:00 PM in IRC

WB/OBIT/LOGS/19 October Meeting Raw IRC Log


1. How we schedule meetings

[21:11] <brandon> There's been some confusion about meeting times and places, as well as a disconnect between irc and the mailing list

[21:12] <brandon> it seems like some people prefer to communicate on the ML, and others on IRC, which is fine. except when a meeting time is proposed on irc it doesn't get to the ML right away and vice versa

Idea of regular evening chat meetings is proposed.

[21:15] <brandon> whenever a time for a meeting is proposed it should be simultaneously posted to the ML, IRC, and on the wiki (the new one)

[21:17] <brandon> please update meeting times on the wiki at wiki.occupyboston.org

2. Scheduling the wiki transition

[21:20] <brandon> ok, so matt is working on the script to import the content from the old wiki to the new one

[21:20] <brandon> it should be done tomorrow or the next day

[21:20] <brandon> so I would like to setup a timeframe for freezing the old wiki, and having the new one ready to go

[21:22] <MK|Home> For now we should at least post a notification that it is moving so no one is surprised

[21:28] <lovec_> there's a meatspace conversation at the same time...

[21:28] <brandon> we propose freezing the old wiki sunday morning, and doing the transition to the new wiki sunday

[21:29] <brandon> MK|Home, solidstate: can you guys take point on putting up notifications on the old wiki? A banner at the top would be best?

[21:30] <brandon> mcktimo: the script works with minimal bugs now, it'll be better by the weekend

[21:34] <brandon> mcktimo: accounts on the new wiki don't need to be verified by an admin like on wikispaces

[21:36] <brandon> the proposal as it stands: freeze wikispaces sunday morning, perform migrantion on sunday, have new wiki ready by Monday. MK|Home, solidstate, will take point on leaving notifications on old wiki. Any questions/objections?

[21:40] <brandon> ok, we have consensous

3. Coordinating with other groups

[21:47] <MK|Home> So, there is a group called "Liaisons" intended to connect working groups together. I'd be willing to volunteer to be a representative for that, but I am offsite most weeknights

[21:47] <brandon> MK|Home: there is a group which met monday, now called Transparency (#OBTransparency) which is dealing with this

[21:47] <Theresa> Liaison meets Sunday usually

[21:48] <Theresa> tomorrow at 9 I believe

[21:48] <gregg> there is actually an organizational group

[21:48] <gregg> that has met once already

[21:48] <brandon> right, so inter group communication is taken care of by them now

[21:48] <gregg> they are working on intergroup comunication and work-flow

4. Ticket System

[21:54] <brandon> so right now there is trac setup

[21:54] <brandon> I personally think that's overkill

<matt2> I'm not in favor of trac personally as it just seems kind of big and unwieldly.

[21:56] <bill_kirtley> ticketing systems are good for following history and status of an issue, with particular attention to who is responsible at the moment

[21:56] <brandon> should we vote on trac vs. redmine?

[21:57] <farmerbob> jira is okay. but it's a java app on tomcat/jetty...kind of a pain of we don't already have java apps.

[21:57] <MachineRebel_> bettermeans.org just went open source

[21:59] <gregg> ticket/issue tracking mostly

[22:00] <siegfail|Logistics> Inventory tracking would be cool too

[22:00] <leftyfb> should it be worth noting the system should have a mobile component as well so it actually gets used?

[22:01] <leftyfb> +1 inventory tracking

[22:01] <matt2> +1 to mobile

[22:02] <MK|Home> Are we moving away from hosted and owning all our systems?

[22:02] <gregg> MK|Home: indeed

[22:02] <matt2> -1 to hosted

[22:03] <brandon> so, there is a trac install up. we can try to get that set with mobile and see what happens

[22:02] <siegfail|Logistics> The idea is that anyone, especially newer people, can jump on and see what needs to be done. It would also help to keep track of efficiency

[22:03] <MK|Home> Are we backing up?

[22:03] <brandon> MK|Home: mayfirst backs up daily

[22:04] <matt2> I would like to make sure that features of trac that overlap other things-- wiki for instance -- get highlighted LOUDLY as not to be used for non tracking stuff.

[22:04] <brandon> matt2: a very good point

[22:05] <matt2> +1 to disabling confusable features

[22:07] <siegfail|Logistics> We'd keep track of stuff that needs to be done, people to call back, inventory, todo's, lost & found items

[22:08] <bill_kirtley> I do see a redmine mobile plugin: https://projects.littlestreamsoftware.com/projects/redmine-mobile - no clue how good

[22:08] <siegfail|Logistics> We would have a logistics computer here at the tent but sometimes we're out of the tent and it would be awesome to start a ticket out in "the field".

[22:11] <siegfail|Logistics> We're looking for a glorified todo/tracking system with logs so we can review what and how we're doing.

[22:12] <brandon> that sounds like something you can do with a wiki

[22:12] <brandon> on the wiki you have revision hsitory, watchlists, etc

[22:12] <farmerbob> mediawiki has features that would make using it this way pretty doable.

[22:14] <gregg> I've updated the livestream page on the blog, it now embeds the current livestream and the library of all the old ones and the chat box

[22:17] <gregg> would anyone have a problem with me adding in google analytics?

[22:18] <cykros> though, personally, I also block google analytics anyway. :shrug:

[22:18] <gregg> we could use piwik then

[22:20] <brandon> proposal: we will modify trac to simplify it as much as possible, and can use that as an issue tracking system

[22:21] <MK|Home> +1 trac. Can we re-evaulate in a week if there are issues?

[22:21] <Theresa> +1 and +1 to re-evaluate in a week if there are issues

[22:21] <brandon> ok. addendum to proposal: have track ready by friday, reevalutate next friday.

[22:21] <gregg> Proposal: Piwik instead of google analytics for web analytics on occupyboston.org?

[22:23] <Theresa> +1 for trac and +1 for re-evaluating in a week and+1 for piwik

[22:24] <farmerbob> -1 for trac (not adamant, just think it's not a good fit for logistics)

[22:23] <Theresa> yes consensus on both

[22:24] <brandon> MK|Home: we have consensous on both the piwik proposal, and the trac proposal, please enter that into the minutes

[22:24] <brandon> we'll reevaluate trac next friday

[22:25] <MK|Home> This might be the best meeting ever

[22:25] <brandon> siegfail|Logistics: we'll get somebody to work with you trac before monday

[22:25] <siegfail|Logistics> thanks

[22:25] <brandon> MK|Home: ^^ add to minutes

[22:25] <siegfail|Logistics> occupyrene (at) gmail

[22:26] <cykros> do we have a new calendar system being discussed at any point? or are we sticking with Google for that?

[22:26] <brandon> cykros: calendar can be tabled until next meeting

5. IRC Communication

[22:27] <brandon> 5) any other business to discuss?

[22:28] <leftyfb> but how can we get it so the camp is actually using these things? Twitter isn't updated nearly as often as it should be and IRC is almost never staffed from anyone at camp unless myself or my brother are there using the IRC laptop

[22:33] <siegfail|Logistics> Yes, yes. However, we're so busy keeping track of all the shit we do and it's hard to bring in new people and I'm too busy for a constant irc presence.

[22:33] <brandon> leftyfb: how about you and me take on the task of improving irc communication between groups?

[22:34] <cykros> I think if anything, it may be useful to use xmpp instead of irc for intergroup communication. some folks already have google talk, for instance, which runs on xmpp

[22:34] <farmerbob> leftyfb: hard to do sans computer.

[22:35] <brandon> anyway, my proposal stands, myself and leftyfb will take on the problem of getting communication with media and logistics in irc

[22:36] <MK|Home> +1 to brandon and amend request you bring the results to transparency

[22:36] <brandon> MK|Home that amendment can be accomodated


[22:27] <brandon> 6) next meeting time

[22:45] <brandon> Proposal: irc meeting Friday 2PM

Agenda Items: Calendar,

[22:48] <farmerbob> motion to adjourn

[22:48] <brandon> ok. meeting over I guess

Oct 21 2011 2 PM IRC Meeting


When adding to the agenda, please place your name/handle next to the item you add, so we can keep track of who needs to talk about what.

  1. Group structure, responsibilities, etc. - we likely need to start splitting the group up (we have 40+ people)
  2. Wikifacts idea that I sent out about a while ago
  3. Distributed demonstration idea
  4. Web editing privileges and procedures (likely a sub or new working group)
  5. Power ideas that have been floating around
  6. Calendaring -- we agreed yesterday that we'd talk about it at our next meeting -- I'm not at all prepared for the discussion, hopefully someone else is looking into it today :)
  7. Wiki migration -- we need docs, testing, first responders and all sorts of stuff ready for the cut over on Sunday. Volunteers?
  8. Google Groups migration -- we need to figure out how to do this, some ideas
  9. livestream -- why isn't it up 24/7?
  10. Trac mobile browsing (brandon)

Oct 30 2011

14:32:04 ross: we're doing introductions at the meeting...now
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14:32:15 kizmut: The moderator set the rule to only allow people involved in that part of the agenda to speak, but someone -m the room.
14:32:23 seekr: WEll, maybe it's best to hold meetings in private rooms where people aren't allowed to participate or vote unless they are known - and can be assured to know what's going on.
14:32:27 kizmut: ...and it wasn't yman who did it.
14:33:03 farmerbob: ross: at e5?
14:33:05 seekr: Well, it may have been atom who gave voice to KeKe and myself - I'd have to check my log file.
14:33:19 kizmut: The wule was just that seekr. yman created the rule and it made sense, but someone -m the room.
14:33:22 seekr: As for the others you referred to, I can't say.
14:33:24 kizmut: *rule
14:33:36 ross: Ross, grainne, brandon, stephen, ravi, martin, 
14:33:45 ross: farmerbob: yes we are at e5
14:34:04 farmerbob: ross: should be there. but would be coughing all over everybody
14:34:13 kizmut: seekr- We must stop. The OBIT meeting has assembled.
14:34:30 ross: Mike K...farmerbob consider yourself here!
14:34:32 seekr: kizmut, Yes.  That's why I've grown quiet.  :)
14:34:55 seekr: kizmut, But thanks much for patiently explaining things to me!
14:34:58 lovecrime|netbook: it's all intros right now
14:35:12 kizmut: certainly
14:35:34 ross: Mike K says he wants to act as a liason between all the other tech groups in the occupy movement.
14:35:58 kizmut: Hoe many are there?
14:36:01 kizmut: *How
14:36:04 lovecrime|netbook: ~13
14:36:10 kizmut: wow
14:36:41 ross: dana teaches at mass art in a tech area of the school.
14:37:18 ross: dana...puts power utilization on the agenda.
14:37:47 ross: noah, working with facilitation and ideas, and to work in the future on the wiki. (which he puts on the agenda.
14:37:50 ross: )
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14:39:26 ross: stewart has spent much time working on tech...hasn't really figured out where he fits with the tech team yet.
14:39:57 ross: jarod lovecrime|netbook wants an occupyboston email...into everything and not great at anything.
14:40:37 ross: stephan is hanging out visiting brandon.
14:41:00 ross: Agenda:
14:41:09 ross: 1. Power
14:41:15 ross: 2. Wiki
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14:41:23 ross: 3. Process
14:41:33 ross: 4. Cloudflare
14:41:58 ross: 5. Livestream
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14:42:53 ross: 6. Working group web developent
14:43:23 smant: ross, I got my phone hooked up to the livestream apparently, I can livestream marches/events where livestreaming off a phone would be of use. I wouldn't mind testing it out at some point. Don't know if/how that helps you :-P
14:44:00 ross: smant: great! 
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14:44:54 smant: The wiki on the subject is clearly for iOS though, and some instructions didn't seem to apply to Android. I'm not a iClown :(
14:45:50 ross: Ideas wants to have some way to have people add comments to the wiki where they do not need to register or login... $inputBox is one extension.
14:46:09 ross: The easiest way for people to just add ideas would be something like input box.
14:46:19 brandon: mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:InputBox
14:47:13 ross: wants to have a way to communicate with someone who can install a module.
14:48:53 ross: Wants to create a set of tags to do research with them.  
14:49:46 ross: Want people to tag their own documents...thinking about a gamified way to connect the tigs.
14:50:16 ross: Wants people to be able to offer input on the ways tags are intertwined and connected.
14:51:02 ross: Would like to have the input box be on the frontpage and the user input would be added to the pages with those tags.
14:52:56 ross: Ravi: sounds like the problem is that people want to become editors ... just add a comment on the site...but comments create significant problems.
14:54:24 ross: what if instead of changing the wiki...we just add a link to the webpage to comment on a blog.
14:54:37 ross: brandon: says it would be trivial to set this up on the wiki.
14:55:43 farmerbob: so we want people to contribute to the wiki without registering? or is there some other distinction i'm missing
14:55:46 farmerbob: ?
14:56:22 ross: farmerbob: that's the idea...but not to edit pages.
14:56:44 farmerbob: disqus?
14:56:53 brandon: disqus isn't a bad idea
14:57:14 ross: now we're suggesting that instead of the content being stored on the wiki it would be better faster to do a link out to the webpage.
14:59:36 ross: so we will create a development environment on the wiki.
15:00:04 lovecrime|netbook: disqus is an interesting idea
15:00:12 ross: noah wants to experiment with different ideas.
15:00:16 lovecrime|netbook: who owns the tech for disqus?
15:00:17 kizmut: The wiki is also used for posting proposals for example the GA.
15:01:21 ross: farmerbob: we're bringing up discus I didn't know it was a platform.
15:01:42 alwillis: You probably want Intense Debate instead of Disqus: http://intensedebate.com/
15:02:43 farmerbob: i don't know. i threw that out there, but i don't really know what the application is...
15:02:45 lovecrime|netbook: concern that disqus is proprietary
15:02:50 ross: noah wants this to be integrated with the wiki.
15:04:21 brandon: medaiwiki.org/wiki/Extension:OpenID
15:04:24 ross: suggestion to implement openID on the media wiki.
15:04:50 farmerbob: can we narrow the focus here a bit? what's the desired functionality? or are these unrelated features?
15:05:21 ross: openID was a suggestion to make login easier.
15:06:33 farmerbob: we went from comment intake to implementing openid...(for what it's worth, my experience hasn't indicated that many people actually *use* openid when you offer it)
15:07:08 ross: noah will link to the blog post.
15:07:26 ross: Action:
15:07:43 ross: 2. Development environment of wiki.
15:08:08 lovecrime|netbook: farmerbob: check pm
15:08:15 ross: 3. Add openid, inputbox, and look into forms .
15:10:34 farmerbob: is there an option in mediawiki to just install all modules that exist?
15:11:13 brandon: farmerbob: :D
15:13:56 brandon: Talking about Process/Cloudflare now
15:14:19* farmerbob raises hand.
15:15:47 farmerbob: 1) *all* (in|out)bound web traffic (to|from) *.occupyboston.org is flowing through cloudflare.com
15:16:21 farmerbob: 2) dns records for *.occupyboston.org are pointing to occupyboston.org (tightly related to #1)
15:16:23@marxistvegan: Ross is talking about the cloudflare and explaining what cloudflare does
15:17:10 farmerbob: 3) i didn't see a single mention of this on the list, where we were all given the sense that we needed to work toward being more self-sufficient and secure in providing infrastructure for OB, etc.
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15:18:19 farmerbob: 4) this amounts to voluntarily putting a third party in the middle of all our web traffic. and it seems to have been done unilaterally.
15:18:25 brandon: Ross says finance wants a secure subdomain for sensitive documents and that traffic would also pass through these servers
15:19:04 farmerbob: (#2, the second occupyboston.org should say cloudflare.com)
15:20:38 ross: g|mobile: says there are two things.  MF/PL was an active decision about security, and the issue of not having a chance to decide upon the process.
15:21:02 ross: brandon: says there was no consensus about the decision.
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15:21:51 farmerbob: i didn't even see any *discussion* much less *consensus*
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15:29:50 ross: sorry farmerbob we're trying to develop a process now.
15:30:47 ross: what criteria for individual action.
15:31:28 ross: Anything Involving information security must be a consensus decision.
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15:39:37 ross: talking about a three level process...Large decisions such as DNS, Mid-level changes need an email list consensus, and individual actions that can be made without approval.
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15:40:52 ross: <ross> talking about a three level process...Large decisions such as DNS,
15:40:53 ross:        Mid-level changes need an email list consensus, and individual actions
15:40:53 ross:        that can be made without approval.  [15:39]
15:40:53 ross:  
15:41:38 ross: if you are modifying the route of traffic, you must have 8 person in person consensus.
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15:42:49 ross: for a mid-level decision you should have 8 person consensus on the email list.  if someone suggests that a mid-level decision is actually a big decision it must be treated as such.
15:56:45 ndmc: Major Decision Process  (This is a living Document) In the interest of both transparency and inclusion, major decisions about our online resources (such as DNS routing, hosting, and SSL implementation) must be decided through consensus in an in-person working group meeting with at least 8 people. Less important decisions that do not affect routing or data security must be supported by 8 OBIT WG members on the email list or the IRC.
15:57:18 ndmc: above proposal was consenesd on by OBIT WG 10/30/11
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16:00:14 farmerbob: is there to be any discussion of this specific matter, the cloudflame situation?
16:00:26 brandon: farmerbob: we're talking about it right now
16:01:22 ross: ravi wants to table the discussion...stephen is arguing that cloudflare sends us back to where we started with wordpress.org
16:01:56 farmerbob: table the discussion? until when?
16:02:10 ross: whenever it fits ravi's schedule better.
16:02:28 farmerbob: it's *worse* than wordpress.org, because it's all the subdomains...
16:03:04 farmerbob: frankly, this is a more pressing matter than the question of putting an input box on the wiki, yet we had time for that...
16:05:09 ross: it was because noah had to leave early.
16:06:01 farmerbob: understood. but this seems to be a high priority issue, especially considering the man-hours contributed in switching stuff from wordpress.com and google groups only to have *all* the traffic routed through a third-party
16:07:21 ross: I agree...
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16:24:20 ross: okay we just voted on asking gregg to point the ns records to mayfirst.org.
16:24:40 ross: reached consensus
16:25:36 ross: dana is telling us where we are with the pedal units.  There are three on the ground at camp right now.  The inverters and one of the batteries got stolen, and so they sat not working for a few days.
16:26:06 ross: Decided that some of the problems about power on camp are not technical but social problems.
16:26:16 kizmut: I am impressed that someone got away with a battery.
16:26:26 ross: lol
16:26:36 kizmut: Is the outlet on the building still dead?
16:26:55 kizmut: I believe the coffee pot blew the breaker.
16:27:07 ross: people are concerned that they need cell phones for marches, specifically for direct action.
16:27:25 ross: the kitchen also wants a good method for lighting...using 12 volt power.
16:27:36 kizmut: I told Alex to write down his proposal for a family plant.
16:27:47 ross: they have done this with new led technology.
16:28:16 kizmut: I take it he hasn't shared it yet.
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16:28:29 ross: want to get pedal power to charge the batteries.
16:28:48 ross: medical tent and food powered.
16:28:54 kizmut: I've seen the LED's. they definitely need more of them.
16:29:02 ross: need to determine who else needs power.
16:29:16 ross: also we need another repeater for the network.
16:30:06 kizmut: Perhaps relocate a repeater for optimal coverage?
16:30:53 ross: another idea is to have a mobile charger.
16:31:24 ross: this also solves the security problem.
16:34:13 kizmut: There's a company that sells a portable solar and VAWT charging station.
16:34:27 kizmut: It is weatherproof.
16:43:12 kizmut: http://envirosponsible.com/Wind_Generators.html
16:43:30 farmerbob: ross: matt and i talked about putting together backpacks to act as mobile charging stations. we were shot down repeatedly.
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16:44:14 ross: farmerbob: dana has talked about this as well.