Talk:WG/Strategies: Difference between revisions

Revision as of 05:52, 2 November 2011

June-teenth General Strike

This is a very big holiday within the African American community. Planning a large demonstration on that day, 6/19 (?), would give folks something to look forward to that is inclusive and takes a lot of planning, like a whole winter of it. I met two women tonight with a contact who makes large lighting displays; this is kind of thing he'd be into. Gunner from Arts and Culture said that someone has approached her about Spring Commitee? I disagree with making this a Washington dc demo; poor people won't go. A General Strike has to be every where. More importantly, June is the end of the Fiscal (budgeting) year for many large co.s . This means in person meetings for board of directors to approve taxes, etc. If only progressive stockholders can get in; we win. Hopefully the movement to elect progressive stockholders is ready for our support.

DECISION REQUIRED--November 4

The people present at last night's meeting decided that they would like to have SPP become one of many "author groups" that feeds Message Statements* to Ideas (and then responds to the feedback given to them by Ideas) about a particular Message Statement.

Do people not present at the meeting agree with this proposal?

Do you wish to be part of a "SPP" author's group?

Once this decision is made, there are a few other decisions that will have to be made soon. I don't want to cloud the topic by posting them in this note, but I will put them on the wiki and send them out once this decision gets moving.

We look forward to your response.

Aria

Message Statement is a provisional rubric. I'm not going to say that again.

(personal note: I'm not up for endless facilitating, so if there is no consensus by 11/4, I will form my own author's group. More about that later.)

Documents Missing From The SPP Wikki Home Page

Please be aware that documents were taken off the SPP wikki home page and moved to home page of other Working Groups. I've tried to correct this, but who knows, maybe someone will move it again.

I had asked three groups that are also working on Message Statements, (the Sunday Group, Occupy the Hood, and POC) to comment on the Message Statement, at a time when I was unaware that the Message Statement was no longer on the home page of SPP.

The fact that the Message Statement is on another Working Groups page is irrelevant since the Message Statement was missing from the page of the group that needs it most.

Now the Statement of Purpose field is empty.

Your thoughts?

Take the survey if you haven't already. I have close to 200 responses but need more.

user:jsager99 15 minutes ago

Link to the Survey: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/viewform?hl=en_US&formkey=dHhSSGl1dnVsVFVaOTlUa3RFck04RHc6MQ#gid=0

Link to the Survey Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/gform?key=0AqBxYhlFsdpAdHhSSGl1dnVsVFVaOTlUa3RFck04RHc&hl=en_US&gridId=0#chart

Josh Sager

10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:AriaLItthous Oct 11, 2011 5:38 pm

I really want to participate in this working group, real time, but 10 pm is just not realistic, for me, and for other people. Is any one from real time SPP monitoring this discussion? Can you move the time around and announce it here? How about posting minutes? And posting a copy of the draft proposals? I saw one once, but there was just one and Chris didn't want to let it go.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:reyraton Oct 12, 2011 5:49 am

Everything AriaLItthous said. :)

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:BookofAmmon Oct 12, 2011 7:30 am

A general thought on this issue:

I wonder if we could use Google Voice to set up conference calls at working group meetings? Basically someone puts their smartphone on speakerphone, and they can "host" up to 4 people over conference call. So you could have people calling in to participate remotely.

It seems to be a general issue with working groups and scheduling meeting times, and could at least give a chance for people to participate if they're not able to stand around in Dewey at the time.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:Stewart76 Oct 12, 2011 9:35 am

Aria & Reyraton: I could not attend the meeting on Sunday and Monday was just crazy with all the arrests. Last night I went in again to the GA, but there was no spp meeting afterward, at least not one that I could find. And there was no mention of this group or any announcements from this group at the GA, as there was the first night I attended. I will say that the GA meeting was definitely more organized, but it doesn't seem like this particular group has much cohesion on site. Needless to say I have been following your posts on the fair tax and on healthcare, and I like what you're saying. So keep posting!! I may head in again tonight if I do I'll let you know what I find out and I will definitely try to get them to use this forum more often.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:reyraton Oct 12, 2011 10:23 am

Is there an actual site-based SPP group formed? Is there a contact person?

If there's no "official" SPP meeting set, then should we set a time between ourselves, on our own?

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:AriaLItthous Oct 12, 2011 10:30 am

There is an actual site-based SPP Working Group. It usually meets at 10pm after GA. I'm guessing that the members are too overwhelmed to deal with the virtual world/are in jail. I got this contact name by sending an email through this system to all 96 people on the OB list. Doing it again/writing to this person might be a good idea. raptureunfolding@gmail.com

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

[[user:

         ]] panagiotis1

This is the first time I've been on the wikispaces, so I'm just now seeing these concerns. SPP didn't meet last night because most people interested were either not there or preferred to postpone the meeting because of all that happened on Monday. There will be a meeting tonight at 10:00pm, where we will discuss some of these issues, and hopefully moving the meeting time on some days so that it can be more convenient for everybody. If you would like to contact me my email is pangelop@fas.harvard.edu and there is also a google group

http://groups.google.com/group/occupy-boston-spp?hl=en&lnk=gcimv

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:pangelop@fas.harvard.edu http://groups.google.com/group/occupy-boston-spp?hl=en&lnk=gcimv

This is great. Do I have a virtual note taker volunteer? Someone who can listen to the meeting and take notes?

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:AriaLItthous Oct 12, 2011 3:30 pm

Someone always takes notes, we'll try to upload them on the google group afterwards.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:panagiotis1 Oct 12, 2011 3:36 pm

There was no meeting for this group tonight.

Plan another SPP meeting, informational?

user:Stewart76 Oct 13, 2011 9:34 pm

What do folks think--Tuesday, 10/19, 3pm? No decisions, just to start conversations.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 3:04 am

Wednesday would be better for me, I have to work on Tuesday.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 1:57 pm

Isn't there a way to automatically transcribe concalls? Ideally, then people could actually call a phone number and listen in post-meeting.

3 pm is good for me, except that it costs me $10 to park each time I come before 6pm. And that cuts into my beer budget. But I'm OK not being at the meetings, if the info is posted and "some" conversation happens online, like via the email list. I like email. I type even in my sleep.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 2:02 pm

ps...for the rare time that I'll be onsite for a daytime meeting, thursday and fridays are best for me.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 2:02 pm

I can also do Thursday or Friday

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 2:23 pm

If there is going to be a meeting of SPP, we need more people to say they want one.

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 2:26 pm

I propose that most work is done online. and that we meet occasionally, perhaps weekly for a month or two, and then monthly.

t

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 3:05 pm

the 'barrier against participation' idea is a very good one. this idea could easily be developed similarly to proposals and spp. we should host a discussion regarding the differentiated functions of 'proposals' vs 'spp' along with 'barriers.'

new page, anyone?

re: 10PM mtg time:barrier to participation.

user:OneKarma Oct 14, 2011 7:13 pm

Start by having an SPP meeting at a different time!

And then brainstorm what barriers are on line, then at GA, then have the page/meeting.

I think the process will finish real time before this goes very far.

SPP meet Mon. 10/24 7pm?

user:AriaLItthous Oct 15, 2011 2:45 am

The first night with no GA might be a good time for SPP to assemble interested people. I could make an effort to be there if others are interested, too. Quorum?

Single Payer Healthcare

user:AriaLItthous Oct 9, 2011 7:13 am

Healthcare should not be a commercial endeavor or a part of the financial services sector as it is now. The rest of the overdeveloped world does it we can too. A clinician's livelihood should not depend on per patient continuing to be sick. We are our "brother's keeper."

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:theTempest Oct 9, 2011 8:03 pm

Healthcare should be a RIGHT!

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:reyraton Oct 10, 2011 11:55 am

Here's some good data:

• In 2009, 5.7% of GDP was paid towards private insurance premiums (approximately $800B, though $130B was recovered as employer deductions for a net of $670B) and 2.1% of GDP was paid from out-of-pocket expenses (approximately $300B): a net $1T was spent from the American employee’s wages and compensation for healthcare last year.

• 8.2% of GDP was paid by the government for Medicare, Medicaid, Veteran’s, Worker’s Compensation, and associated healthcare, as well as the noted $130B in employer deductions. This is approximately $1.3T, and is paid for by extant taxation.

• Total yearly expenditures within the United States on healthcare accounted for 16.6% of GDP, or $2.3T.

• No other universal healthcare system in the world pays more than 11.4% of its GDP in healthcare, yet most outperform the United States’ medical system. In America, that 11.4% of GDP conservatively implies a total cost for universal, American healthcare of $1.6T.

• Government is already expending $1.3T a year on healthcare; only an additional $300B in taxation would be required in order for the American government to fully fund a universal healthcare system.

• Taking $300B away from the $1T paid towards healthcare by or for employees leaves a net $700B belonging to employee compensation and wages which would otherwise be spent: this money, now not needed to pay for healthcare, converts into wages.

• Universal healthcare would therefore increase the average employee’s wages by $3500 as well as provide total access to healthcare and uncouple employee compensation from healthcare, as well as create a more moral and dramatically less expensive healthcare system.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:gwiech Oct 10, 2011 2:17 pm

The US spends 19% of its GDP on healthcare. No other country spends above 12.5%.

Call for consensus on Single Payer Healthcare

user:AriaLItthous Oct 10, 2011 2:23 pm

It feels to me like there's as much consensus on this as there is on Ending Corporate Personhood.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:reyraton Oct 10, 2011 6:07 pm

I agree; I think that an ultimate action list for the Occupy movement as a whole is going to be very short, and out of the four or five achievable targets, those two are going to make it past the final cuts.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:theTempest Oct 11, 2011 9:29 am

Great Facts! It's amazing that the RIGHT(wrong)keeps marching out people into the meadia for a soundbite that is that broken record about how HealthCare (they like to call ObamaCare) will bankrupt us as a nation. I hope this makes the final cut!

Health Insurance Co's: a cancer on the body politic

user:AriaLItthous Oct 11, 2011 9:39 am

Yes, let's move it along. Folks out of jail yet?

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:pcovery Oct 11, 2011 3:33 pm

Will this have an effect on rising healthcare costs? I gather that rising costs are due to an aging population (and especially extreme care in the last months of life) as well as maybe liability insurance. I think we'd need to say something about cost containment if we mention healthcare, in order to be credible.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:theTempest Oct 11, 2011 4:43 pm

The biggest problem with healthcare is that besides nurses and lower level staff there are to many large costs in the system. The doctors & high ranking administrators are taking home too much money. In Manchester NH there is a small, some might say mid-sized hospital - it is a Catholic Hospital - that the CEO is paid over a million $$ a year. Nice Catholic hospital!

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:theTempest Oct 11, 2011 4:45 pm

The system also builds these Taj Mahals for hospital buildings. We might think of smaller community based health care facilities that cost less to build & maintain

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:AriaLItthous Oct 11, 2011 5:21 pm

pcovery; healthcare cost rise because of the profits payed to CEO's, etc. and stockholders. In a good non-profit system preventive medicine will bring down overall costs. TR Reid's book, "The Healing of America" is a good overview of healthcare systems worldwide. In anycase, we should not get into the details of legislation, that's not our job. Broad general demands will work best. Let legislators sort out the details.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:reyraton Oct 11, 2011 7:45 pm

Public healthcare is generally based on collective bargaining between what is essentially a doctor/caregiver's union and the government to set fees for services.

Regarding cost containment, there's not a lot to say. The population is aging and end-of-life care is growing more desperate/expensive all the time, but that's happening regardless of the healthcare delivery model. 3% growth, year-on-year, is a lot more easily contained when your baseline is 12%, rather than 17%.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:reyraton Oct 11, 2011 7:47 pm

I'd also add that details are important, since perception of feasibility is going to be a large hurdle.

No need to go deep deep in the weeds, but the broad-strokes numbers should be there and major counter-arguments anticipated and dealt with honestly.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:gwiech Oct 12, 2011 9:57 am

Vermont and Montana are starting to implement single-payer and will likely be the model for whatever the US adopts long-term. Although I think it's an incredibly important issue, I think everyone needs to let the situation play out.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:AriaLItthous Oct 12, 2011 10:08 am

I disagree; healthcare is the biggest moral issue of our time and the outcome is not certain. We need to be on the correct side of it, now.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:occupyboston4ever Oct 14, 2011 11:29 am

Health care should not be an issue taken up by this movement. It is a partisan issue, that turns the 99% into 50%. There is already health care legislation passed by Obama, there is no reason to have a national protest about this issue.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 11:37 am

This is a moral issue: do you believe it is right to PROFIT from another human being's illness? The owners of health insurance companies make millions because everyone gets sick. They lose money if They provide health care. For-Profit Health Insurance is a cancer that sucks the life blood from the body politic and corrupts its soul.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 1:50 pm

Healthcare should be taken up by this movement, because eventhough obamacare was a start, like aria said, the goal of our healthcare system should be to provide the best quality care in the world, not to make more money. And until for profit insurance companies are out of the equation they are a hinderance to the system.

re: Single Payer Healthcare

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 1:57 pm

Aria: Healthcare should not be a commercial endeavor or a part of the financial services sector as it is now. The rest of the overdeveloped world does it we can too. A clinician's livelihood should not depend on per patient continuing to be sick. We are our "brother's keeper."

TF: AGREE

Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:AriaLItthous Oct 18, 2011 2:51 am

What do people think about trying to get just this passed by GA:

Our mission is to give birth to a just and compassionate body politic that treads lightly upon the Earth.

?

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:sharksocks Wednesday, 10:20 am

I don't see much value in it personally. Id rather see us devote more time in the GA to conversations about strategy to building our numbers and tactics to grow the movement.

But the statement itself is not disagreeable. I just don't think it moves us forward.

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:AriaLItthous Wednesday, 2:21 pm

How's this: We will know our mission is accomplished when.... 1. The US has a sustainable, peacetime economy. 2. All the Earth's ecosystems are healthy. 2. The voices of the 99% are heard and acted upon. 3. The government priorities the needs of the 99% over the wealthy.

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:pcovery Wednesday, 3:46 pm

I favor a short statement like you started with above. I see it as an umbrella marketing tool that will hopefully draw people in more than turning them away.

In addition to a headliner SOP, there will be more specific positions and demands that can be developed by interested people and brought separately to GA.

That's how I'd like to see our purpose develop.

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:AriaLItthous Wednesday, 3:54 pm

Thanks. I might have made a mistake in by listing all the methods & objectives (#5-15) right off the bat.

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:Stewart76 Wednesday, 4:36 pm

I thought you made better points with objectives 5 thru 15, that was the strongest part of your proposal. I favor the bullet point format and also liked some of the points in the occupy Madison proposal.

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:theTempest Wednesday, 8:58 pm

Nice with the 2 twos & the word is prioritizes

re: Your feedback on just mission statement proposal?

user:brucehrl Today 7:20 am

Strategically, the only thing that really matters right now -- and where the Occupy Movement has had its greatest success, thus far -- is winning the hearts and minds of the broad U.S. population. An important reason for this has been the movement's elemental focus on Wall Street greed, extreme inequality, and the corruption of money in our political system. These are hugely important problems that the 99% can actually agree on. We should not get more specific at this time because that will needlessly complicate a message and likely weaken the Occupy Movement's appeal to the broad public.

Form Sub Visions SPP Working Group?

user:AriaLItthous Oct 18, 2011 12:26 pm

Are there guidelines for forming working groups that can submit proposals? I have a few supporters for the Roadmap, and would like to get more...

re: Form Sub Visions SPP Working Group?

user:sharksocks Oct 18, 2011 8:15 pm

I don't know if there are any official guidelines to forming a working group. It seems to be a bit organic and contingent on your ability to organize people together. I don't really understand the purpose of your working group though -- seems to be something that should be taken up by Ideas/SPP. Why don't you join them?

Tactics, only please

user:AriaLItthous Oct 16, 2011 6:06 am

Nov. 5 is withdraw your money from big banks and put in credit unions day.

re: Tactics, only please

user:vozhyk87 Oct 16, 2011 7:18 pm

Boycott elections - take the remaining legitimacy of the 1%’s government!

Boycott big banks and corporations - take away their power!

Occupy Together movement has been implementing a model of a horizontal democracy in order to have a conversation between the 99% and the 1%. The movement has grown and the general public becomes more and more aware of this platform where everyone gets their voice heard. Yet the 1% through their controlled media outlets demand… demands! They simply refuse to listen. They refuse to hear us!

It was their turn to speak up yesterday, last week, a year ago. But they still don’t talk to us. Even as our invitation for a conversation is louder than ever. Most importantly they continue to do what they do best - preserve the status quo, preserve the rotten system.

The 1% shouldn’t expect a policy draft to come out of this movement. It’s not the point. When a list of clear demands comes out of the 99% it will be ridiculed, ignored, or sort of debated in a regular blah blah blah fashion on shiny TV screens. And then some other important events will occur, say another bird/pig/squirrel flu, a new war, a tsunami, and the conversation will be shut down for the reasons of national security.

No one expects bringing change to be an easy task. It might require just quite a bit more effort than occupying and marching and chanting.

By boycotting the elections (all forms) 99% can take away the remaining legitimacy of the government, which is perceived as an agency representing 1%’s interests. This is a LEGAL and PEACEFUL form of protest! This will make further, and possibly more drastic, actions of the movement justifiable. Like not paying taxes. Like disobeying illegitimate government’s authority.

Simultaneously though we need to boycott big financial institutions and corporations. The wealth of 1% enabled the corporatocracy. And their wealth is largely created from the hard work and earnings of the 99%. Taking our money from big banks is the first step. And then boycotting the products and services of irresponsible corporation, followed by workers’ walk-outs, general strikes, etc. It’s in our hands.

re: Tactics, only please

user:Stewart76 Oct 16, 2011 7:58 pm

The boycott banks protest started in response to bofa increasing fees for customers, because new regulations were making it too hard for their CEOs to make their million dollar salaries. Rather than take a pay cut they opted to charge their customers. The other big banks have not done this yet (except for maybe citibank). My point is not all big banks are reckless. So let's make sure we punish the right ones with this protest. (td bank is a great bank for example)

Voz: instead of boycotting the election...I think it would make a bigger impact if we used the primary to make a statement about campaign finance reform. Let's say instead...we all register republican and vote or write in Buddy Roemer for the republican candidate. He is the only republican candidate taking about this issue, and the only one not accepting PAC money. As such he gets no media attention and doesn't have enough support to be included in the debates. Dont you think it would be a bigger FU to the 1% to vote for the candidate they spent sooooo much money trying to keep quiet? Your vote does count, use it.

re: Tactics, only please

user:vozhyk87 Oct 17, 2011 10:02 pm

To be perfectly honest, your vote doesn't count for shit. So any attempts to change anything through elections within the existing framework is a big waste of time. The system has to be truly democratic to bring a change through elections.

re: Tactics, only please

user:AriaLItthous Oct 18, 2011 2:49 am

So you favor Proportional Representation/Ranked Choice voting?

Message Only GA, 10/24??? No decisions. No other topics.

user:AriaLItthous Oct 18, 2011 2:47 am

Can someone propose this tonight?

The proposal is that the GA on Monday, 10/24 be devoted entirely to Message, including the "no message Message" option, no decisions, no other topics.

Agenda

1. Should we have a Message? a. Pro b. Con C Rinse and Repeat

2. Summary Presentation of 2 Proposals a. Small Circle discussion b. Rinse and Repeat c. Small Circle report back.

3. Individual Comments on Proposals.

4. Setting of follow up date for Rinse and Repeat.

Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 13, 2011 12:58 pm

Below (How do I attach documents?)

Occupy Wall Street’s

Road Map To Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

“the truth is always simple”

OWS Mission Statement:

Our mission is to give birth to a just and compassionate body politic that treads lighly upon the Earth.

Our mission will be accomplished when these goals are met: 1. The US has a sustainable peace time economy. 2. The voices of the 99% are heard and acted upon. 3. The Earth’s rights are recognized as being on par with human beings. 4. In allocating resources, the US government priorities the needs of the 99% who are not wealthy.

We ask that all elected officials pledge to support these objectives and methods:

5. The immediate creation of a National Single Payer Non-Profit Healthcare System 6. The End of Corporate Personhood. 7. The implementation of a “cradle to grave” social safety net. 8. To end the assault on workers' rights 9. To support the end of institutionalized racism, sexism, homophobia and attacks on immigrants. 10. To end the current wars and vow to not engage in another. 11. To facilitate the creation of a new tax code, written from scratch, that supports our goals 12. To pass the Obama jobs bill. 13. To extend the pubic education system through all levels. 14. To direct government spending away from the military and towards social programs. 15. To convene a Constitutional Convention to implement Proportional Representation 16. To repeal all anti-union laws.

It is not the role of OWS to craft legislation. We look forward to commenting on our legislators plans on how to implement the Roadmap.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:reyraton Oct 13, 2011 1:59 pm

9. Needs examples.

10. Probably should trim "not engage in another", though I'm sure you put it in there for a reason.

12. We can actually do better than this one, and presumably argue a better case than him as well.

13. How is this paid for? What are the figures involved? Education economics is one area I'm ignorant of.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 13, 2011 2:12 pm

9.That's Their Problem. 10. Pacifism what I meant. 12. Toss them a bone. 13. That's their pubic. I mean problem.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:reyraton Oct 13, 2011 5:25 pm

For broad strokes I like a lot of this, but I personally think we've trusted the establishment to come up with solutions on things long enough.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 13, 2011 5:57 pm

It's an important strategic choice; the alternative is endless squabbling about smaller issues on our end. THEY come to us, we hold their feet to the fire.

The beauty of the Constitution and Bill of Rights is that they were broad strokes.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:andrewlab Oct 14, 2011 5:14 am

Regarding #12: We're not here to throw politicians a bone.

The greed of the corporations and 1% controls our country's political landscape. Both parties and the politicians are at best complacent in watching the the 99% suffer while the 1% prosper. And in many cases are lending the 1% a helping hand.

Putting the support of OB behind something so specific that has come from those politicians, particularly something that is currently in the middle of a heated debate in DC changes the dialogue of these protests from "The 99% vs the 1%" to "Democrats vs Republicans."

Agreeing with reyraton, we can't trust the establishment. When we say money/the 1%/ capital, controls the politicians that implicitly means that without systemic changes politicians can't and won't represent the interests of the general population.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 5:40 am

12. It's important to give something to our liberals & union members that is more concrete, less idealistic, more real time. Remember, even if OWS nationwide were to ratify this, it would still be the beginning of a very long process. We do need Obama.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:andrewlab Oct 14, 2011 6:39 am

I disagree that we need Obama. He isn't a particularly strong rallying point for liberals currently. I doubt that throwing in one point about one bill Obama might not even get passed is going to change any minds about Occupy. And even if it could, I think that my point still stands that this kind of support makes the movement sound like it is a part of the "Democrat vs Republican" dialogue that we are trying to break out of. I think 5,6,10,14 are all fairly concrete and avoid that problem. If there is still concern that they are too idealistic, or not concrete enough, I think: 1) We should remember that this is still small and keeping up with national politics is likely unrealistic. Our horizontal organization is great for now, but moves too slow to try to be involved in the arguments on capital hill. 2) I'd suggest we focus on local issues (MA or Boston). I think this will have a better potential for our outreach (sounds like that is what you are going for with 12?) and avoids my concerns with supporting Obama/his politics.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 8:25 am

RE:#12 & Obama; if you heard he was going to say something positive about OWS; you'd ask him not to? 1)This is why we make broad statements and make Them respond to us. 2)I disagree. No local issues. Boston should aim for leading the OWS movement by getting the most far reaching demands out first. Everything that comes after will dilute it.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:andrewlab Oct 14, 2011 9:13 am

Obama saying a positive thing about OWS is very different than OWS supporting bills that he is proposing.

If we are making broad statements and looking for responses then why would we support specific policies? If we are trying to lead OWS with far reaching demands why would we support specific policies?

I don't mean to be petty or obstructionist. I think the list you've created the best one I've seen to date (from Boston). But #12 comes across as very partisan and doesn't fit with the tone or type of demands made in the other numbers. I'll strongly oppose including that in any statement Occupy Boston makes currently.

Hopefully I've made my position clear - I don't want to clog up this thread with my voice on this point. If you'd like to continue this discussion Aria, feel free to email me (andrew.labak@gmail.com)

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 10:32 am

Is anyone else interested in hearing more?

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 10:37 am

Im listening

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 10:37 am

Im listening

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 11:01 am

I think #6,11, & 15 prove we're not Democro'pubs. #12 proves we're not living on another planet. It's very possible They could pass it right away, to throw US a bone. It will keep ordinary people who need jobs, on our side. It's "shovel ready."

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:theTempest Oct 14, 2011 11:21 am

Take off the president's name & plan. We do not have to give anything to anyone. These are talking points

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:theTempest Oct 14, 2011 11:24 am

It's enough that we say we need a jobs bill. Period. You can't repair the economy without getting more money circulating & you can't circulate if you don't have people working

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 11:28 am

A rose by any other name...we need NUMBERS, mainstream support, and Obama, for now. This will give it to us. We're not giving up anything but ego.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:theTempest Oct 14, 2011 11:35 am

Well we are giving up something BIG! We believe Washington is broken & he is part of Washington. We may be mostly liberal here but we have tried to very hard to be inclusive & that means steering to the middle. Do not alienate those who may be right of the president but still sympathize.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 11:39 am

Rather than steer to the middle, lead to the left. And that means bringing more liberals. Items #6, 11, & 15 will bring in more right wing nuts than we know what to do with.

re: Roadmap to Economic Justice and Horizontal Democracy

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 11:46 am

I like 5, 6, and 7. I think 8&16 can be combined. I am not against 9, but we have laws against discrimination already, I think this is more of a generational problem, also immigration reform should be a separate issue. I also agree with reyraton on 10, not engaging in anymore wars is a dangerous position for our country to take. I think 11 should say specifically that a new tax code should be progressive, and serve to decrease the earning gap bw rich and poor. I like the Obama bill...but if people have an issue with supporting him, then maybe word it "pass a jobs bill that...." 13 needs to be written better and should also encompass reform for grades k-12. 14 is two separate issues talk about military in 9 and increasing spending on social programs here 15 I don't really know much about this, so if anyone else does it would be great to hear your thoughts.

Preliminary issue survey results: READ IF YOU ARE FORMULATING A LIST OF DEMANDS

user:jsager99 Oct 17, 2011 6:03 am

For results go to link: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h2b1NawJhhmdXBOm9RySsZRcAIOcl4jhhMBV--CiIwU/edit?hl=en_US

I have begun my analysis of the data that I collected during my survey. I have 180 responses which have given me a rough estimate of the values of the collective group. I divided the answers into three catagories: low, Middle, and high. The low category (score of 0-3) is composed of the people who would not support the proposal in any way, and would likely be difficult to persuade otherwise. The middle category (score of 4-6) is composed of the people who are on the fence and could possible be swayed to the one side or the other. The high category (score of 7+) is composed of the people who will support the proposal no matter what.

By finding the ratio between those who would support a proposal and those who wouldn't, I can estimate the general levels of support that a proposal to the GA would receive. Any issue that has a high ratio would likely be passed without much debate or blocking. For example: a ratio of 3 or above means that at least 75% (enough to overcome a block) of people would be at least OK with a proposal if not happy about it passing.

The ratio is not a percentage of support but rather a ratio of high support data point to low support data points. To use the Glass-Steagall results as an example: You read it at a support of 75% where the actual results show support of 75:1 (for every 75 positive votes, I received one negative vote; there were 2 either very low or block votes compared to 150 very high or high votes).

Using a fairly large margin of error, any issue with a positive:negative ratio of more than 10 would probably be easy to pass in a GA. A ten to one ratio would mean that there would be over 90% support for the issue, even taking into account the block potential and the margin of error in my study, I posit that it would likely pass once we are actually talking demands.

Keep in mind, the middle level of support is composed of those without strong opinions and thus open to convincing either way. This middle category will make up their minds on the issues as we vote on the issues and thus the deciding factor in some of these issues will be convincing those people on the fence or ignorant of an issue. IMPORTANT NOTE: There were numerous write in questions, mostly involving rights of free speech and minority protection. I have not ignored these, and will release an analysis of the write in values soon.

To anybody who is creating a list of demands or guiding values:

My analysis is not extremely accurate as the sample size is far lower than I would like but it is a good guide as to what might pass the GA in a proposal. My study was intended to find which issues hold the most common ground and thus would be EASIEST to pass in the GA. If you want to expedite the messaging process, this analysis will help you select a series of demands that would be as uncontroversial and quick to pass as you can. I believe that we need to release a unified message soon, lest we risk losing cohesion by focusing entirely upon the process but lacking any substance.

Joshua Sager -- SarcasticLiberal.blogspot.com

re: Preliminary issue survey results: READ IF YOU ARE FORMULATING A LIST OF DEMANDS

[[user:

         ]] monicapoole

Joshua, this is a TERRIFIC contribution! Thank you! (And yes, the "middle group" is the real story precisely because, as you've said, they're open to convincing either way.) Could you copy the link to your survey results to the main Ideas page, perhaps with a really short blurb (1-2 sentences) explaining it? Thank you!

re: Preliminary issue survey results: READ IF YOU ARE FORMULATING A LIST OF DEMANDS

[[user:

         ]] bugmagnet

Agreed! this is really great!

re: Preliminary issue survey results: READ IF YOU ARE FORMULATING A LIST OF DEMANDS

[[user:

         ]] sharksocks

Where are the detailed questions so we can see what exactly people were voting on? (for e.g. what's the difference between Iraq 1 and Iraq 2?)

Thank you for your work.

World Government Working Group?

user:occupyboston4ever Oct 16, 2011 12:23 am

I just read an article reporting ties between George Soros and Ad Busters, the Canadian magazine that started the occupy wall street protests. I am pleased that this movement started with its focus on the big banks and sought to change deep rooted injustices that exist in our system. However, I am far from an internationalist, and shirk at the idea that this movement wants to extend its influence internationally. There was a post on occupy boston that called for the spread of Democracy worldwide. This sounds like the Bush doctrine of spreading democracy. I don't support this doctrine. I believe the US should mind its own business. A world government working group is way beyond the scope of a movement like this. We still have yet to embrace one single issue, and people are talking about worldwide revolution. This kind of attitude plays directly into the internationalists hands, and is easily manipulated. If a movement like this wants to be serious, it needs to focus on issues that are immediately presentable and have clear solutions. If we want to help the world, the first thing we need to do is take away the rights of corporations right here on our own soil. We need to take control of our money supply and stop giving corporations easy credits and subsidies. Do that, and then you can start talking about the next step.

re: World Government Working Group?

user:Stewart76 Oct 16, 2011 7:05 am

This is a good point and I agree with you about not forcing our ideals on other countries. On the other hand this movement has already gone world wide: first the Arab spring, then the European summer and now the American autumn. If we are talking about standing in solidarity with these movements, that's one thing, but it's pretty naive and egocentric of us to think we would be leading the way on this or that we have any influence over those protests. If anything, it was the international community that inspired us.

re: World Government Working Group?

user:reyraton Oct 16, 2011 1:41 pm

There's no faster way to lose middle America - this is still a democracy - than to invoke the idea of a world government.

Let's all just agree all over the world that capitalism's been running rampant a little too harsh and long and we'll all just fix what's in our own backyards.

There hasn't been a Worker's International since '38, and for good reason.

re: World Government Working Group?

user:pcovery Oct 16, 2011 1:45 pm

Sounds like this idea is a no-go for the good reasons cited above.

re: World Government Working Group?

user:OneKarma Oct 17, 2011 1:37 pm

i believe the arguments against a world-wide working group ignore some important observations. 1. (pointed out by Stewart76) we are already world-wide. we have become connected not only via social media, but also via world trade. to assume that capitalism exists only in the USA (as implied by occupyboston4ever and reyraton) is to completely ignore the fact that we are a globally interactive species. 2. a global working group is not an 'international' entity - it is one that does not recognize national borders. a global working group addresses human organizational issues without subjugation (whether national, religious, generational, etc). a global working group would be an ongoing, open event, inviting participation by all who have become aware of its existence.

arguments for 'attacking' only those issues prevalent on 'our own soil' are egotistical and naive - it is the assumption that we are not interconnected, that the USA is a body that can be purely separated from the rest.

arguments for 'taking control of our money supply' assumes that the institution of money is one worth prolonging. while this may prove to be true (highly doubtful), it ignores many conversations that must come first. of these conversations, we cannot ignore the gathering (more obviously 'together' than current mediums allow) of global voices to address the primary causes of strife in human experience. to hold this conversation only at local levels is absurdly naive.

while it is not occupy boston's responsibility to create a global working group, in assessing justice there is for all of us an obligation to be aware of the sum of human knowledge. to see more thoughts on this issue, please visit GAPP 10 and discuss.

<http://occupyboston.wikispaces.com/GAPP+10>

re: World Government Working Group?

user:http://occupyboston.wikispaces.com/GAPP+10

I agree with OneKarma.

You can oppose the idea of a world government, while still supporting the idea that--in a prosperous and free society--all human beings should endowed with certain unalienable rights, irrespective of their race, creed, or income level.

We should recognize that the struggle we are engaging in here in Boston is connected not only with movements within our borders, but also with movements far beyond.

There is already a de-facto world government: multinational corporate power. We are stronger if we oppose its excesses together.

?Post on Wall--process question

user:AriaLItthous Oct 17, 2011 7:58 am

Weren't the proposals supposed to be posted on the big wall so people on site can see them?

Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

user:matt.gabrenya Oct 14, 2011 1:14 pm

Hi all,

I have not been involved with the policy group, but I came up with a document that I think could really help us. http://bit.ly/occupy-paper Take a look at it, and if you like the idea, expand it.

It is an outline to organise the many diverse ideas about

   - Symptoms, or the overt pains that people experience and obvious failures of the economy and political system -- what has sparked and brought many people into the occupy movement.
         -  Reforms, or specific, tangible and short-term ways to alleviate the symptoms.
          - Roots, or the root causes that make these symptoms constantly arise.
          - and Visions, or long-term ideas to address the roots.

I think this could be very helpful for us to:

   1. To compile the many social issues that have brought people into the Occupy movement.

   2. To compile the many different ideas people have about solutions, and make a distinction between solutions that address the symptoms we experience, and solutions that address the root cause of those symptoms.

   3. To help us see our movement as the sum of all its parts, not the lowest common thing everybody can agree on. Even if there is some internal contradiction and disagreement on the edges, the mass of our movement is directed in the same way. This diversity is what gives us strength.

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] matt.gabrenya

The idea is that instead of coming up with very some very general, and some very specific ideas about problems and solutions -- we should format these ideas as 'Symptoms', 'Reforms', 'Roots' and 'Visions'

this will help us better organise our understanding of the problems and the solutions.

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] terrawiki

I'd agree that we could consolidate all of the "symptoms" together. But Reforms are, again, solutions/mechanisms to get to goals. So that's separate from both symptoms. And separate from mechanims. I see Roots as the same thing as Symptoms. So that can stay. Visions are goals, and should go with the goals stuff...which is, IMHO breaking up into the separate goals, to be addressed specifically.

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

This document could invoke the "paralysis of analysis". How do you feel about the winner take all system as a root cause?

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] terrawiki

How many ways can you saw "greed". I have a great story about the kids that were seemingly robbing the food tent the other night. Stop me and ask me to tell you. Quite inspiring...

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] matt.gabrenya

@terrawiki: I think it could be useful to think about each of the 'symptoms' on their own, just so we can compile the various ideas folks have about reforms to address each, and their root causes. Rather than just having a huge list of symptoms and huge list of reforms, this way we can go more detail in laying out specific ideas to solve specific symptoms.

I don't think this would/should be released publically, but I think the format could be very useful for us to figure out the sum of everyones various problems and solution ideas.

@ariaLitthous -- I think that right now we have a "paralysis of no-analysis" -- lots of people are waiting on occupy to come up with a plan to move forward in addressing all the symptoms. We are trying to come up with one, but it will likely be very broad, and not move us forward in coming up with specific tangible reforms we can win.

I do not think it is our job to come up with broad problems or reforms, that "our" legislators will then take off with. We need to come up with the specific solutions, and force our legislators to comply.

Also, what do you mean by "winner take all system" as a root cause? Of what symptoms?

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] Stewart76

Matt: I agree with you about specific solutions...if our goals are too broad there it no way to know if we are making progress toward them. Goals should be realistic, specific and measurable. (I coach, it's what I tell my kids)

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

Winner take all is the US electoral method that shuts out most voices, those not dem or republican. Most European countries have a proportional system that allows third parties, like the Greens, to be heard. It is a symtom that recreates it's root which is unequal access to power. I think that any white paper used to under pin OWS should demonstrate and understanding of horizontal democracy that already exist in the world, including swedens electronic direct democracy pilot/be written by people with broad knowledge. Are you on site?

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] matt.gabrenya

@AriaLitthous I think that makes a lot of sense -- I added your points (as I understand them) to the document at 11.a.ii, 11.b.iv, 11.b.v

Take a look and expand upon them!

Unfortunately I'm not on-site. If you want to talk about this in person I could come for an evening during the week, maybe on Tuesday?

re: Symptom, Reform, Root, Vision

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

I appreciate your including my ideas and I still think the level of detail is counterproductive. There are 10,000 steps between now and legislative change; laying out what you want just makes a big target for the opposition and is unwieldy for a consensus driven organization. This is the start, not the end of the process.

Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:JSkeet Oct 14, 2011 7:35 am

This is a work in progress, which will hopefully be submitted with any appropriate friendly amendments and corrections to GA in a few days. Please discuss and provide criticism:

Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

The times in which we live confront us with a combination of crises the likes of which we in the United States have never seen before: a toxic mix of financial, economic, social, and environmental messes that demands a radical clean-up. While each of these crises has its own determinants, they also all share a common root cause: the domination of our social, economic, and political order by a system designed to serve a wealthy elite, at the expense of the vast majority of the population, here and around the world, not to mention other living creatures on this planet. In light of these interlocking crises, the stench of which we can no longer stand, crises which threaten our lives, our livelihoods, our liberty, our human values, and our common future, We, the General Assembly of Occupy Boston, believe that "business as usual" is no longer an option. The corrupt order, and the intolerable crises amidst which we live demand a profound, collective response, a popular and participatory response of the sort the ruling elite can neither allow, nor even imagine:

Whereas, the problems of economic inequality, unemployment, crushing debt, as well as corporate personhood, greed, and unaccountability, are all symptomatic of the larger corrupting influence money has on our political and social lives,

Whereas, this influence has consistently been used to impede progress toward a more just and sustainable society, and has often perpetuated crisis and war at home and abroad in furtherance of its own undemocratic agenda,

Whereas, those wielding this influence also own and control the media we require to inform ourselves about their many abuses of money and power,

And whereas, our peacefully gathered democratic assemblies are amongst the last uncorrupted arenas we have to educate ourselves and plan resistance,

Be it resolved that we, the General Assembly of Occupy Boston, acting in solidarity with occupations across America and with peoples' movements worldwide, do hereby declare our opposition to all systems of power that function to maintain these oppressive and undemocratic arrangements, just as we declare our affirmation in the belief that a better world is possible, and that it is our right and responsibility to begin creating it.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:JSkeet Oct 14, 2011 11:29 am

Alright, so I just realized that we promised the inner city youth, in a consensus decision at GA, that we would recognize the different plights of different segments of the 99% in our statement. With that in mind, here is a slightly revised declaration, with the revision happening in the 3rd whereas statement:

Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

The times in which we live confront us with a combination of crises the likes of which we in the United States have never seen before: a toxic mix of financial, economic, social, and environmental messes that demands a radical clean-up. While each of these crises has its own determinants, they also all share a common root cause: the domination of our social, economic, and political order by a system designed to serve a wealthy elite, at the expense of the vast majority of the population, here and around the world, not to mention other living creatures on this planet. In light of these interlocking crises, which threaten our lives, our livelihoods, our liberty, our human values, and our common future, We, the General Assembly of Occupy Boston, believe that "business as usual" is no longer an option. The corrupt order, and the intolerable crises amidst which we live demand a profound, collective response, a popular and participatory response of the sort the ruling elite can neither allow, nor even imagine:

Whereas, the problems of economic inequality, unemployment, and crushing debt, as well as corporate personhood, greed, and unaccountability, are all symptomatic of the larger corrupting influence money has on our political and social lives,

Whereas, this influence has consistently been used to impede progress toward a more just and sustainable society, and has often perpetuated crisis and war at home and abroad in furtherance of its own undemocratic agenda,

Whereas, the perusal of this agenda has had profound detrimental effects on all working and middle class communities - and particularly on communities of color, youth, and other marginalized segments of our population – as well as on the environmental systems upon which we as a species depend,

Whereas, those pursuing this agenda also own and control the media we require to inform ourselves about their many abuses of money and power,

And whereas, our peacefully gathered democratic assemblies are amongst the last uncorrupted arenas we have to educate ourselves and plan our resistance,

Be it resolved that we, the General Assembly of Occupy Boston, acting in solidarity with occupations across America and with peoples' movements worldwide, do hereby declare our opposition to all systems of power that function to maintain these oppressive and undemocratic arrangements, just as we declare our affirmation in the belief that a better world is possible, and that it is our right and responsibility to begin creating it.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 3:29 pm

Is this the preamble that's been floating around?

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:JSkeet Oct 14, 2011 10:21 pm

Nah, just finished this thing this morning. I'll distribute printouts around camp soon, after I get some more input on revisions.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:jgramsey Oct 15, 2011 11:27 am

I love this.

One tiny fix. I think you mean "pursuit" not "perusal" in that newly added (and important) whereas clause.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:jgramsey Oct 15, 2011 11:30 am

Also, Skeet, I noticed that you took out the phrase, "the stench of which we can no longer stand," when you reposted the document. Was this intentional? I kinda liked that line, thought it developed the theme of "toxic mix" "messes" and "radical clean-up"...What do others think? (full disclosure I drafted the intro :)

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:jgramsey Oct 15, 2011 11:32 am

Very excited about this. Can I send others the link to get their feedback and/or support?

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:DebakaAmberpaw Oct 15, 2011 6:36 pm

after "media", could "courts and access to justice" be added?

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:Charlie-Boo Oct 16, 2011 2:07 am

You're not giving any specifics and all you are saying is you're agsinst it and it's unfair. You call it "messes" and "a system designed to serve a wealthy elite" How are thje wealthy elite served? Exactly what is the system that is designed to cause this? How is it desigbed to do this?

You need to be specific in the symptoms, causes and remedies.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:pcovery Oct 16, 2011 5:07 am

In addition to disliking the overall tone of manifesto, I disagree with these parts, strongly:

"the likes of which we in the United States have never seen before: a toxic mix of financial, economic, social, and environmental messes that demands a radical clean-up." The current situation in no way compares to the mess before the Civil War, or the Great Depression or even the uncertainty after the Revolution. Also, we are not in any way agreed on the need for "radical" anything. Similarly, this is overblown and will alienate a lot of us: "'business as usual' is no longer an option. The corrupt order, and the intolerable crises amidst which we live demand a profound, collective response, a popular and participatory response of the sort the ruling elite can neither allow, nor even imagine."

"system designed to serve a wealthy elite" History shows there have been many interests and factors affecting our system. It is too simplistic to say it was designed to entirely suit one group.

"those pursuing this agenda also own and control the media we require to inform ourselves" This is outdated and irrelevant to your conclusion.

"our peacefully gathered democratic assemblies are amongst the last uncorrupted arenas we have to educate ourselves and plan our resistance" Yet another controversial and unsupported claim.

I think it's important to keep our feet firmly planted in present reality and to build slowly within the existing system. Great disturbance will, justly, have little support because history has shown it to be a breeding ground for tyrants.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:Stewart76 Oct 16, 2011 7:51 am

I don't disagree with you, and I can tell you worked very hard to put this statement together. It is eloquently written and you do make some great points. However, I think the message needs to be simple. This is supposed to appeal to a broad-based group, and as such should stick to the journalistic principle of a seventh grade reading level. Think cliff notes vs. War & Peace. And maybe that's the solution...two versions: one long, one short?

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:DebakaAmberpaw Oct 16, 2011 8:31 am

Stewart - you have a point. Generally readership drops by 75% as soon as there is a second page to anything.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:AriaLItthous Oct 16, 2011 8:33 am

A lot of words devoted to what's wrong and not many to much else. The know we're against stuff; what are we for? Check out the Roadmap if you need some ideas.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:JSkeet Oct 16, 2011 11:28 am

To Aria: This is a declaration of occupation, which is intended to outline general grievances and a path toward a participatory response, ie our occupations, GA's, and popular movements.

It is NOT intended to present demands. If it is your vision to write a declaration that also includes demands, that is your prerogative and I highly anticipate seeing it and the discussion it sparks. However, I know for a fact that it will not pass GA, as there are many people involved in this movement that do not want to see demands put forth at this time.

My personal intention in writing this was to get something together that I thought WOULD pass GA: a declaration in support of the principals of democracy and social justice that we COULD all agree on, something that will go a long way toward offering up a more cohesive identity for this movement and perhaps lend itself toward drafting a list of demands in the future.

To Charlie-Boo: We are all here because we are in general agreement that somehow, this system serves the few at the expense of the many. However, naming that system outright gets contentious and divisive: is it capitalism, is it the state, is the the fed, is it corporate influence in politics? This statement was meant to capture all of those sentiments and more in a way that was not divisive, and that rested upon a shared vision for a democratic and just society. Doing anything other than that is going to get whatever proposal you come up with rejected by the GA.

To pcovery: I'm willing to alter the intro to speak for our generation instead of the entire US history. I'll post the revision when I come up with it. However, I disagree that we have not more or less agreed on the need for radical solutions to our current problems: how else would you explain the popularity of a movement that has, thus far, firmly planted itself outside of the established political process, and whose language - in the form of the solidarity statements we write, the declarations some of our movement has ratified, the chants that we yell, and the actions that we take - is indeed demanding a radical departure from business as usual. I mean, did you SEE the document we passed in support of the Oct 15th day of action? Does that sound like business as usual to you, or that we are not clear on wanting a sharp break with the status quo?

Also, I too believe that many factors and factions, not all of whom are wealthy, affect the society under which we live. I am not convinced, though, that our current economic and political system is fundamentally designed to cater to any of their interests over the interests of the wealthy, which is why I included that section.

The part on media may indeed be a weak point in the document. I'll consider revising, but keep in mind that I do not find it irrelevant to the conclusion at all, which is basically saying that it is only through a process like the one we have initiated with our movement - that is, a process outside the established and mediated channels of discussing political and economic theory and action - that we can begin the collective process of affecting the change we require. I feel that the spirit on our movement is very representative of this idea. To be clear, though, I do not believe that our movement has a monopoly on the "correct" process for political and economic change - just that, if we were to rely solely upon established channels to be having these discussions, we wouldn't be having them at all right now.

As to the part referring to our assemblies, I believe it ties into my last point about the necessity for beginning these processes outside the established political channels, and I believe that if there is any lesson to be learned from the last year of political movements worldwide, it is that there is a widespread belief in just such a sentiment, as well as in the power of parallel democratic assemblies.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

user:JSkeet Oct 16, 2011 12:01 pm

I apologize but I seem to have made a mistake in posting this to several places. Can we please move future discussion to the proper message board: http://occupyboston.wikispaces.com/message/list/OccupyBoston+Declaration+of+Occupation

Can we prioritize $$ in gov as concern #1, and other critical concerns as ancillary to it?

[[user:

         ]] bm_inboston

Hell All,

We cannot hope to successfully address critical problems such as Wall Street reform, environmental concerns, health care reform, jobs, etc. as long as OUR (not “the”) Federal Government remains exclusively responsive to the 1%.

The SOP, therefore, ought to clearly and explicitly hold campaign finance reform [and/or a Constitutional Amendment (such as Sen. Kerry's or Rep. Edwards - Maryland) to permanently patch the gaping hole left by the Citizen's United] as a prerequisite, and as preparatory to addressing the myriad aforementioned policy concerns of average Americans.

We can plea for decades about housing, student loan debt, jobs, Wall Street reform, but until we cleanse our own governing process of heavy undue influence, we can be assured that NO ONE in D.C. will be listening.

This primary purpose of creating a more open and responsive Federal Government should be placed at the absolute center of the SOP for three critically important reasons:

1)It is something that Democrats, Conservatives, Libertarians, Socialists, and most others can agree upon. The movement will be killed (and ignored) if it is simply a list of demands from the left that plays like a broken record. The SOP needs to clearly invite all political views for a fair competition of ideas, and needs to fight for the same in DC. This ought to be an American Movement, not a Noam Chomsky, or Ron Paul movement.

2)It is a logical prerequisite to addressing ALL other concerns. One must clear the wax out of government's ears before we expect it to be able to listen and respond.

3)It is highly actionable. An Amendment is already drafted, and floating behind the scenes of congress. This is “shovel ready.” If fighting the fight means marching out day in day out, across the country, collecting millions of signatures, one by one, pledging citizens to vote down members of Congress that fail to vote to send the Amendment through Congress to the states, then THE FIGHT IS ON – starting immediately. This is clear, actionable, and foundational to all other serious concerns.

Thanks, Brian M.

p.s.

The death of this movement is that it will not represent the political will of only a sliver of the population, rather than the 99%, or it will produce nothing actionable. Keeping the FOCUS on priority #1 solves both of these problems. . .

sorry for the lack of editing. . .

[[user:

         ]] bm_inboston

"The death of this movement is that it will not represent the political will of only a sliver of the population" should read:

"The death of this movement will be its representation of the political will of only a sliver of the population, rather than the 99%". . . sorry.

re: Proposed Occupy Boston Declaration of Occupation

[[user:

         ]] occupy_pacified

bm_inboston is right, and I have mentioned this need to everyone (inside/outside of OB activities) whenever the movement has come up in conversation. The need to remove monetary influence from politics is a) non-partisan, b) accessible to a majority of people with a relatively simple explanation of the problem, and c) isn't divisive to anyone that's capable of/willing to think logically. It is the only "for" that the movement should put out there, everything else should be considered a separate agenda that other new or existing groups can fight for once the system has been cleaned of bribery and corruption.

I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do, but I feel more strongly about this one belief than anything I've ever cared for in my life. Money in politics is the root of every evil you will fight against. Money in politics is the root of every evil you will fight against.

Money in politics is the root of every evil you will fight against.

[[user:

         ]] JSkeet

Is it possible to lock this thread and direct discussion over to here: http://occupyboston.wikispaces.com/message/list/OccupyBoston+Declaration+of+Occupation

Now that we have a centralized place to discuss suggestions I'd prefer not to have to respond to the same things in three different locations.

TOPICs on the main page

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 3:35 pm

What's the process for changing the "TOPICS" on the main SPP page?

Here's what's there:

End Corporate Personhood Financial Regulation Free Trade Tax Reform The Smedley Butler Amendment for peace Federal Reserve System

3 out of 6 are the same issue, which could go under Financial Regulation, or better said, "Banking Reform". and there's nothing about healthcare, food, water, shelter, which are separate topics in and of themselves.

re: TOPICs on the main page

user:StargazerA Oct 14, 2011 5:04 pm

re: TOPICs on the main page

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 9:23 pm

Yup. Agreed. I want to focus on the basics first. Let's see if Healthcare passes.

re: TOPICs on the main page

user:pcovery Oct 16, 2011 4:27 am

As I see it, a wiki is intended for user edits.

Anyone can add content, after looking through what's there to try to fit something into a logical place.

We should be careful to leave notices about other people's content that we're moving, either in a discussion like this and/or with a note in its former location.

That's my approach.

Proposal

user:DebakaAmberpaw Oct 15, 2011 6:14 pm

Access to justice and the rule of law are essential to both justice and fairness. The best laws and structures "on paper" do no good if the people cannot use or be protected by them, or only some people have access to courts.

Snowfall Deadline?

user:AriaLItthous Oct 13, 2011 2:18 pm

Poetic and practical.

re: Snowfall Deadline?

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 3:35 pm

brrr...

re: Snowfall Deadline?

user:theTempest Oct 15, 2011 12:04 pm

we will do a great job crafting our reports/demands but the time will come to reach out to the masses. The occupy boston site is one huge void after the 9 - 5 crowd in that area goes home. No wonder they like us being here in our own Potemkin. The real 99% never sees us in their neighborhoods

Preamble for Road Map??

user:Stewart76 Oct 14, 2011 10:10 pm

There was a preamble presented early on. It never made it to this site or to the google group. But I tried to come up with one that encompasses all of the demands that are being discussed. I also think this is important, because at the outset, this movement was supposed to come up with one demand we could all agree on and get behind. Does this work? We want the United States Government to adopt economic policy that is fair, just and sustainable. Fair to ALL of it's people, regardless of age, gender, ethnicity, lifestyle or economic status; with policies that promote the common good. Just in it's ability not only to foster and reward hard work, ingenuity and achievement, but also to deter and punish greed, fraud and corruption. Finally, sustainable into the future, because protecting the human, natural and man-made resources of this planet from exploitation and abuse is the only way to ensure our survival.

re: Preamble for Road Map??

user:AriaLItthous Oct 15, 2011 2:57 am

This is the second time the preamble topic has come up; I wrote the Roadmap, but not any preamble. I'm not in favor of one.

re: Preamble for Road Map??

user:AriaLItthous Oct 15, 2011 9:09 am

I'd love to have Wendell Berry write one.

Roadmap Practice Writing Page, join in!

user:AriaLItthous Oct 15, 2011 2:55 am

There is an area where all possible edits can be seen on the original. Please leave the underlined original so others can see it! If you want to take stuff out, just type "delete" next to the point.

The practice writing page is on the first page of SPP. Scroll down.

Change to Roadmap, #3

user:AriaLItthous Oct 14, 2011 5:35 pm

Our mission will be accomplished when....all the Earth's ecosystems are healthy.

Please see the full text on under Page.

Comments?

re: Change to Roadmap, #3

user:terrawiki Oct 14, 2011 9:25 pm

I posted over there. Agree in theory. But what to do about the nuclear waste already generated?

Graduated Flat Tax

user:AriaLItthous Oct 9, 2011 7:09 am

Starting fro scratch is the only way to create a fair tax code.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

user:theTempest Oct 9, 2011 8:05 pm

A fairer tax code where EVERYONE pays taxes should be law

re: Graduated Flat Tax

user:reyraton Oct 10, 2011 11:51 am

Flat taxes are notoriously regressive and hit the poorest, the hardest.

Consider two families, one making $20k/yr (Family A) and the other making $80k/yr (Family B). After paying for rent/mortgage, food, energy, and other essentials Family A has significantly less to spend than Family B.

As it stands, America took in about $860B in income taxes last year, from $7.6T in income. That's a flat tax rate of 11.35%. Instituting a revenue-neutral flat tax in America would increase income taxes on the bottom 92% of America and decrease them on the top 8%. I don't believe that's a wise move forward.

With a progressive income tax, Family A pays less in taxes because they're a recognition that they can't afford to pay more. Family B is expected to pay more because they can afford to do so.

America's current income tax is progressive, but also saddled with multiple deductions and oddities. However, it ultimately still attempts to rate taxation based on relative disposal income rather than gross income.

The idea of a national guaranteed income with a national sales tax on consumption was proposed with the FairTax ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax ), which would ensure that every American family was given money equal to poverty level, but even so the estimates are that the sales tax would have to be 40% just to break even.

GRADUATED Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

GRADUATED flat tax, lower marginal rates for lower incomes.

3.4 million words is not a few oddities

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

Lobbying for tax code changes is one of the major ways corporate American gains power.

The tax code's ability to reward and punish makes it our country's moral voice. Tabla Rosa would be a great start. Direct Democracy on every provision is another great strategy.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] reyraton

What's the difference between a graduated flat tax tied to income levels and a progressive income tax? I think they're the same thing?

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

It may be a question of wording, honestly, I"m not sure. But Graduated Flat Tax captures the idea of no exemptions no credits and I'm not sure that's part of the progressive income tax idea. Are you with the groups Researcy, SSP (?) that are working on a message document? I'd like to meet up with you all. I'll be down there tomorrow starting at about 2pm until GA is done. Have you seen my Listening Circles proposal?

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] reyraton

I think re-doing the tax code is a laudable goal... really I think at this point the question is how progressive to make it, what revenue targets should be, and what similar changes ought to be considered regarding welfare programs.

Leave the details to Them

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

It's not our job to write tax code. That way lays disaster. All we have to do is demand that They start from scratch--no exemptions, credits, ext. If it feels right then I'd add something like demanding a national dialogue, or better yet, digital direct democracy on whatever They propose, but again, simple,large, direct and clear is best.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] reyraton

It's not a question of writing tax code, but generalities are still important: how progressive should it be? Revenue targets determine government expenditures, so how large is government? Abrogating responsibility and saying, "you guys figure it out" is not a good starting place, especially if someone (say, myself) proposes post-WW2-era marginal rates (top rate @ 80%) and then doesn't show how that effects everyone else.

The IRS posts data all over the place on tax collection; setting new margins and marginal rates isn't that difficult. Crunching the numbers is actually the easy part. The difficult part is trying to figure out how far to take things.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

It's important to ask for more than what we want, because we will get less than what we ask for.

We can't demand much more than a fresh start; that's better left to a wider democratic process.

Can you go to the SPP meeting tonight at 10 pm and report back to the Wiki?

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] reyraton

There's no way I can do a 10pm meeting, at least on this short notice. My wife would kill me. Even if I could, it'd be a rare thing.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] terrawiki

I like the idea of a tax off of gross person revenues. The reason I say this is that I'm intimately aware (Masters in Finance, small business owner) of how easy it is to "game the system" by deducting everything. While some people (myself) focus on trying to pay our fair share. Others spend a great deal of time/energy figuring out ways to deduct everything. If we took it "off the top", we could avoid a lot of that.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] terrawiki

also, is it possible to put this as a TOPIC, Graduated Flat Tax. I'm proposing that when a topic gets enough discussion that it appears to have some support, that it move to be an actual TOPIC on the main page. Where the person that started it proposes some draft language for that page to describe what we mean.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] StargazerA

My version of a "fair" tax would be one where the marginal value of the last dollar paid by each person was the same. If you make $1 million, the next dollar isn't worth as much as if you make $100,000, which isn't worth as much as if you make $15,000. Since the marginal value of a dollar isn't a linear function (research suggests that it drops off dramatically around $72,000 at the moment), the fairest system will tax income above that level at a higher rate than income below that level.

Additionally, thanks to the huge and gross income disparity you can not fund the government off a flat tax: you could take every penny the bottom 50% of this nation has and still not make as much money as a 17% tax levied on income over $100,000. They simply don't have any money to take.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] terrawiki

OK, but I think that if we focus on the "how", that we'll never get through it. Does everyone agree that "some kind of" graduated flat tax...the mechanisms to be defined later? Can we agree to that?

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

I think any more detail than starting from scratch is pointless; it's another battle for another day.

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] terrawiki

So are you OK with just saying "we believe in a Graduated Flat Tax"? and leaving the rest for later?

re: Graduated Flat Tax

[[user:

         ]] AriaLItthous

No. I believe strategically that the way to garner more support is to leave it even more open ended; let them come to us. There will be chances down the road to offer more ideas. My favorite is electronic direct democracy on whatever they propose/crowd sourcing provisions.

7 pm SPP meeting tonight

Who will be there?

SPP Mtg 7PM 10/31: Merge, Dissolve, Evolve, Emerge

SPP has to decide whether it will continue to exist, and if so, what it's role will be vis-e-vis the Ideas Working Group's.

The Ideas Working Group's mission is to create discussion forums, (mostly real time) that will lead to actions/possible a mission statement. These forums might also include discussions of strategies/tactics.

So far, as far as I can tell, the mission of SPP, that is different from Ideas, has been to craft an actual Message Statement (Statement of Occupation, Demands, etc,) to bring to GA.

If you are not able to make the meeting, please forward your thoughts on the future of SPP (only, please, no bloviating). There maybe a vote or call for consensus at the meeting/on line on issues such as:

1. Merge with Ideas Group--statements in process passed to Ideas 2. Finish Message Statement and take it to GA (please read the Facilitators Proposal) 3. Dissolve-statements in process passed to Ideas 4. New Mission for SPP

Tonight, myself, Dan and Dave, met briefly and then joined first the Facilitators meeting and then the Ideas meeting. Please spread the word about this possible change, especially to people who have posted proposals or even presented them at GA. Thanks.

A.

10/31 Proposed Agenda

SPP 10/31/11 Proposed Agenda

1. Introductions, including user name 2. Notetaker? 3. Agenda ok? 4. Do we have quorum? a. Lock the google group and old wiki?

5. Temperature check (just in case we already have a decision.) a. present summary of on line comments i. Dissolve group ii. Merge with Ideas iii. Complete current Message Statement, merge w/ideas. iv. Reformulate Mission

6. Discussion, including presentation of on line comments. a. What will happen to the Message Proposals already under discussion? 7. Consensus i-iv.

8. New Mission (if necessary) a. Provide a largely on line forum to give individuals and working groups feedback on two page Message Proposals submitted in a standardized (background, mission, goals, objectives, methods) format and to send those Message Proposals to Ideas/GA. b. To formulate, largely on line, Strategies and Tactics, and to forward them to Ideas/GA.

Ideas Group Meeting: Minutes 10/24

This meeting was co-facilitated by Aria and Noah. There were 21 people in attendance. We introduced ourselves and were asked to give a brief statement about what we wanted this group to be. (I am paraphrasing from notes, so I apologize if I didn't get it exactly right.)

Dan - Would like to discuss specific strategies to cut military spending Ian - Would like to discuss specific strategies relating to cutting the costs to the city for running the movement and also organizing protests against Bank of America in relation to Nov. 5 Angela - Would like to discuss issues related to taking care on site occupiers Andrew - Has developed a web site called wewrite.com, and is interested in creating an online document that hundreds of thousands of people can participate in creating, whether though voting, editing or submitting their own contributions Suzie - Would like this to be a face to face organization of ideas, because sometimes things are lost in translation with tweets and texts Stephanine - Is the national news editor for Occupy Boston Globe and is hoping to use that as a way to communicate with other occupy movements Aria - Has been involved with OB from almost the beginning, and would like to help organize and discuss ideas Eli - Wants this movement to WIN! and is interested in creating specific strategies and goals to make that happen Noah - Is also part of the facilitators group and would like this group to be a place to collect and discuss ideas and strategies that reflect OB. Carolyn - Is interested in discussing a strategy for the winter Daria - Is interested in clarifying the role of SPP/ideas groups. She is primarily interested in message and strategy. David - Is has just finished reading "On Dialogue" by David Bohm and is interested in how ideas are transfered from person to person. Justin - Would like this group to be a place where we can organize ideas Ben - Is from Australia and is interested in sharing and linking occupation groups internationally. Laura - Wants to participate in the discussion of ideas that can help this movement be more effective at creating change Marty - Is also interested in discussing a strategy for the winter. He brought up the idea of an end date for the occupation (vs. withering away in the cold and tapering out). He wants to find a permanent space for winter to hold GAs and WG Meetings Joey - Is here to promote Horizontal Democracy Mark - Is interested in talking about how we can bring diverse ideas like socialism and anarchism together, so we can work with each other instead of against each other David - Has a background in public policy and is interested in discussing ideas and research to help OB move forward Philip - Wants to bust up wall street and affect change. He believes occupying gives the movement a moral basis. He wants to stay through the winter and believes it is important to do so because it gives this movement a visual picture or face.

In summary we agreed that collectively we wanted the ideas group to: 1. Be a place to discuss and come up with strategies 2. Be a place to collect and organize ideas, facts, research 3. Be a place to discuss specific messages 4. Define the role of the ideas wg vs. the spp wg and whether to combine or work separately

There was a brief discussion about meeting etiquette/process.

Possible Ideas Group Mission Statement: To actively seek out ideas, opinions, input and research of all groups in the camp, in the virtual community and greater society and create a transparent and inclusive process to organize those ideas to be presented at large (presented by Noah)

We collectively agreed to hold regular meetings. Next meeting Wednesday 10/26 at 6:00PM in the courtyard of the federal building across the street from the encampment.

Please contact ideas@lists@occupyboston.org for more information

The SPP group will meet next Monday at 7:00PM in front of the library tent. There is some overlap between the groups, so please communicate our roles discussion to them. (Daria/Suzie)

SPP latest Message Proposal, need feedback

The SPP google group has been editing the Roadmap. The latest formulation is on this wiki here:

http://wiki.occupyboston.org/wiki/Road_Map

Feedback please?

Thanks for reorganizing home page!

Much better..now if I could just get alerts.

Thanks for reorganizing home page!

Much better..now if I could just get alerts.

PROPOSED AGENDA 10/31

SPP 10/31/11 Proposed Agenda

1. Introductions, including user name 2. Notetaker? 3. Agenda ok? 4. Do we have quorum?

5. Temperature check (just in case we already have a decision.) a. present summary of on line comments i. Dissolve group ii. Merge with Ideas iii. Complete current Message Statement, merge w/ideas. iv. Reformulate Mission

6. Discussion, including presentation of on line comments. a. What will happen to the Message Proposals already under discussion? (shut down google group& old wiki.) 7. Consensus i-iv.

8. New Mission (if necessary) a. Provide a largely on line forum to give individuals and working groups feedback on two page Message Proposals submitted in a standardized (background, mission, goals, objectives, methods) format and to send those Message Proposals, w/o authors names, to Ideas/GA. Invite famous folks. b. To formulate, largely on line, Strategies and Tactics, and to forward them to Ideas/GA.

Google Group and Wiki Homepage

At some point this week someone took the statement that we've been working on, off the home page. Please don't do that.

I have made some changes to the home page; I created a spot for pop-up proposals, though I'm having trouble finding the text for the three tier.

I also took out mention of the google group, since we are trying to get off of it. Tell your friends.

More after tonight's meeting.

DC

Jobs Not Cuts - oppose super-committee cuts

Hi all, I'm posting this proposal here and also in direct action.

The congressional super committee looks sure to make massive cuts to Medicare, Medicaid, public education and all public services. One of the super committee members is John Kerry who's office and home are both downtown. We should join with the Jobs Not Cuts Campaign and build actions protesting cuts to public services. Already actions are being planned here in Boston for Thursday Nov 17. Already local endorsements include the Massachusetts Nurses Association, Noam Chomsky, and the Green-Rainbow Party. Nationally, Occupy Madison, and multiple Madison unions have endorsed.

I think we should at minimum build for actions on Nov 17 and perhaps do more than that (Occupy John Kerry's office!)...

-Josh

June-teenth General Strike

This is a very big holiday within the African American community. Planning a large demonstration on that day, 6/19 (?), would give folks something to look forward to that is inclusive and takes a lot of planning, like a whole winter of it. I met two women tonight with a contact who makes large lighting displays; this is kind of thing he'd be into. Gunner from Arts and Culture said that someone has approached her about Spring Commitee? I disagree with making this a Washington dc demo; poor people won't go. A General Strike has to be every where. More importantly, June is the end of the Fiscal (budgeting) year for many large co.s . This means in person meetings for board of directors to approve taxes, etc. If only progressive stockholders can get in; we win. Hopefully the movement to elect progressive stockholders is ready for our support.

Meeting Tues., Nov. 8, 3pm, library tent

Different day/time might get different group of people

Agenda Items???

Someone besides me will bring the comments of the on-line community about agenda items to this meeting.

1. Consensus on substance of current Message Statement, in parts. a. Statement of Occupation b. Mission c. Goals d. Objectives and methods

2,. What part will we send to Ideas? 3. When?

4. Mission of SPP

Proposed: The Mission of SPP is to facilitate the passage of a Message Statement* by the General Assembly of Occupy Boston by analyzing statements, suggesting revisions, sending them to OBldiscussion, and supporting the passage of Message Statement that have reached consensus in SPP in GA.

This title is a provisional rubric. I'm not going to say that again.

5. Clarification of our status, the on-line/real time divide, any other issues.

Aria

@@ Line 1,100: / Line 1,100: @@
 I disagree with making this a Washington dc demo; poor people won't go. A General Strike has to be every where.
 More importantly, June is the end of the Fiscal (budgeting) year for many large co.s . This means in person meetings for board of directors to approve taxes, etc. If only progressive stockholders can get in; we win. Hopefully the movement to elect progressive stockholders is ready for our support.
+== Meeting Tues., Nov. 8, 3pm, library tent ==
+Different day/time might get different group of people
+Agenda Items???
+Someone besides me will bring the comments of the on-line community about agenda items to this meeting.
+. Consensus on substance of current Message Statement, in parts.
+a. Statement of Occupation
+b. Mission
+c. Goals
+d. Objectives and methods
+,. What part will we send to Ideas?
+. When?
+. Mission of SPP
+Proposed: The Mission of SPP is to facilitate the passage of a Message Statement* by the General Assembly of Occupy Boston by analyzing statements, suggesting revisions, sending them to OBldiscussion, and supporting the passage of Message Statement that have reached consensus in SPP in GA.
+*This title is a provisional rubric. I'm not going to say that again.
+. Clarification of our status, the on-line/real time divide, any other issues.
+Aria